Transcript of a secret
Aesthetic Realism meeting:
An inquest of a person who
didn't stay "cured" of homosexuality
posted March 2009
Since I started this site four years ago, at many
points I thought I'd just revealed the most scandalous thing
possible. For example, when AR people denied they had a
gay cure, I posted a scan of
the actual ad they ran in major newspapers touting that
very thing. I thought that was pretty damning.
But then I got hold of a lengthy article in
exposing AR as a cult, and quoting several former members
and a noted cult psychology expert at length, describing
AR's mind control practices in detail. What's more, they
allowed me to reprint it here. Surely that was as good as it
would get, right?
Not even. After that a former member contributed an
account of life inside the cult. It was so
comprehensive and so specific I really thought that was the
final last word on Aesthetic Realism, especially since it
came from an insider. How could we show any clearer what AR
is really all about?
But the evidence kept pouring in. After I
published the above account, another former AR student
shared with us the tape of
his therapy session where the AR people tried to "cure"
him of his gayness. For the first time, the world was able
to see how a poor AR student was berated for not showing
sufficient fanatical devotion to AR and its founder -- and
that showing such extreme devotion was supposedly the whole
basis of the gay cure.(!) Now really, what more evidence
could I need to show AR for what it really is?
Well, honestly no more evidence is really needed, but
it keeps coming anyway. Recently I received a tape of a
secret meeting inside the group, which is transcribed below.
To say that it's scandalous is an understatement. This
really blows the lid off the whole thing.
Here's the summary: Back when AR was touting its
gay cure in the 70's and 80's, as soon as someone was
"cured" they were quickly married off to someone else in the
group. Not surprisingly, the "cure" didn't usually stick,
and the relapse rate was high. Such was the case with a
person whom we'll call Luke Randall. After he was married
off he eventually admitted to the group that he was still
cruising for gay sex. The group then called an inquest about
this, which was recorded onto tape. We recently got our
hands on that tape.
The scandal isn't that the cure didn't stick, or even
that AR thought it was appropriate to try to change gays in
the first place. That's old
news. What's shocking about this meeting is:
- How the Aesthetic Realists yell at, demean, and
insult this poor guy, and his wife too, up and down the
street. You might think they'd want to gingerly help
him get back on the "straight" track. You might think
they'd have some sympathy for what the wife must be going
through. But not even close. Instead, they all just gang
up on the couple and traumatize them for the better part
of an hour. For example: "I don't
give a damn about your husband...! I don't give a damn
about you!" "You are so selfish.... I can't believe how
selfish you both are! You're so disgustingly selfish!"
"There are babies, children who aren't even tall enough
to stand up on their two feet and you've crippled them
for life. You're a barbarian." While the words
speak for themselves, it is impossible to convey through
a written transcript how utterly cruel and contemptuous
the AR people sound and the sheer hatred in their voices.
There's also the really creepy feeling of a mob egging
each other on, as the group murmurs and shouts out in
agreement with the meeting's inquisitors.
- The delusions. The AR people somehow convince
themselves that Luke wasn't cruising because he was
really still gay, he did it to "get back" at (AR founder)
Eli Siegel and Aesthetic Realism. Wow.
- The way private family matters are no longer
private once you're in the group. When Luke's wife
suspected he was still cruising, she was expected to tell
the group. She did, but they still castigated her anyway
for not doing so quickly enough:
"[W]hen you got the first
hint of a suspicion that there might be H, why didn't you
call ten people; why didn't you raise your hand in an
Opinion Meeting? Why didn't you make something public -
unless you were out to protect your husband so you can
have contempt galore for him, contempt for Eli Siegel and
Aesthetic Realism and drag everybody through the mud?"
[Eli Siegel is AR's
- The fact that the AR people are more concerned
with damage control than with helping Luke with his
struggle. They don't care about what Luke or his wife
are going through, they just want to make sure that this
incident doesn't wind up casting any public doubt on
their gay cure. Towards that end, they talk about editing
Luke out of their upcoming "We Have Changed" film,
because they're scared of the fallout if people find out
that someone in the film hadn't really changed. (Though
again, the AR people convince themselves that Luke
had really changed, and that the only reason he
was still having gay sex was to be vindictive towards the
people who cured him. Right.)
- The mind control at work. This text is a
stunning example of one particular mind control
technique, a way to get the subject to adopt a certain
position. Rather than tell him the position, they ask
him what his position is. If he gives the wrong
answer they work on him until he gives the correct one.
It's rather insidious. By getting the subject volunteer
that this is his position, he then has a certain
ownership of that belief. This is way more powerful than
if the subject were told what to believe and he just
nodded in acceptance. Since the subject thinks he came up
with the position himself, he's much more deeply attached
to it. This is a primary trick used in Aesthetic Realism
consultations, by the way.
Anyway, in the transcript below, you'll see that the
group repeatedly asks Luke what he thinks should be done.
Luke keeps saying he doesn't know, and the group gets
angrier and angrier, saying they're not going to tell
him, he has to come up with the answer himself. They want
him to voice it so that he'll own it. They do the same
with his wife. And when his wife gives the "wrong"
answer, they steer her towards the "correct" one....
- That they actually try to run Luke out of
town! At one point they suggest that he be banished
from New York City.
- That the most important thing in the world to the
Aesthetic Realists is to worship the group's founder, Eli
Siegel, and that the biggest sin one can commit is to
fail to worship him completely. For example:
- "I owe to Eli Siegel my
life, my being, every fiber in my body. "
"You thought your difficulty was coming from that you
thought Mr. Siegel was praised too much and that no
one should be praised this much. People should know
what that means! You, in effect, took a knife and
stuck it in Mr. Siegel's grave when you went out and
- "You want to go and go and
go until somebody discovers you and says, "My God,
Aesthetic Realism doesn't amount to anything. Nor does
Eli Siegel." And that's your hope. Don't kid
- "Have you been in good
faith?! Have you protected Eli Siegel's meaning in
your home and Aesthetic Realism and the change in
While reading the transcript you might think, "Jeez,
why didn't the couple just leave? Leave AR or at least just
leave the meeting, rather than endure this abuse?" Well,
that's the very definition of being in a mind-control cult.
In a cult your capacity for making logical decisions is
emasculated and you do what the group expects of you
instead. But to the subject's credit, at one point he
actually does walk out of the meeting, only to return,
I would love to post the audio, but my informant asked
me not to, out of respect for the privacy of the people
at the meeting -- both people who left AR long ago, and
people who are still in. That also means that all names have
been changed. Other than that, the tape was painstakingly
transcribed, word for word.
The tape's authenticity was easy to verify. I can
recognize multiple voices on the tape, and it sounds exactly
like an AR gathering would. And since I'm in contact with
several other former members besides myself, I don't have to
rely on just my own ears to confirm that it's the real
I can't wait to see how the Aesthetic Realists will
try to spin this on their site "Countering
the Lies". All I can say is, good luck.
Transcript of the secret inquest, May 9, 1982
Main Interrogator #1: The purpose of this evening,
as is the purpose of any meeting of students of Aesthetic
Realism, is to see Aesthetic Realism and Mr. Siegel truly,
and we have been authorized to serve - the men and women who
have changed have been authorized to serve as an Ad Hoc
Justice Committee for the Aesthetic Realism Foundation to
see what would be justice and fairness in a situation, and
for us to make a recommendation to the other students of
Aesthetic Realism as to what we feel should be as to a
And as we begin, one thing I feel very strongly about is
the fact that we have a tremendous opportunity to be fair to
the greatest knowledge and the
greatest person who ever lived [AR founder Eli
Siegel], and the opportunity for this also carries with
it many benefits to ourselves. One of the things I will say
is - I have thought about this a lot - I feel that any
person, any man, definitely people who have changed from
homosexuality, any man who doesn't want to be completely
fair to Eli Siegel and Aesthetic Realism, his change is
still incomplete; he hasn't got everything he came for. He
will carry with him the vestiges of that and nurture the
vestiges of that which made him homosexual in the first
place. And I think for every person here tonight whatever is
talked about, whatever is seen, this should be once and for
all every person deciding they want to be completely fair to
Eli Siegel and Aesthetic Realism with all the joy and the
beauty and the wonder that accompanies it, and I think it is
a tremendous opportunity for people really to make up their
One thing I do want to say is, if there is anyone here
who feels that they are protecting something in themselves
which would have them unable to oppose something in another
person, cut it out! Cut it out once and for all.
For the purpose of this evening, we are now an official
committee of the Aesthetic Realism Foundation. The request
is every person here to see it as your responsibility to be
completely honest. That's asked for, it's asked of each
person, it's asked of myself, it's asked of Mr. S, it's
asked of [Luke Randall] and [Bonnie
Randall], it's asked of Mr. D, it's asked of every
So first of all as we begin, is it all right if I ask
Luke Randall: Sure.
Main Interrogator #1: We'd like to have facts as
clear and straightforward and as accurate as they can be so
people can have an opinion. And right from the outset we're
not interested in gory details; we're simply interested in
establishing some very basic things. The first thing is very
straightforward: In the last year, Luke Randall, have you
been having H sex?
Luke Randall: Yes, I have.
Main Interrogator #1: And about how many times? In
a way it's a detail, but it can be said.
Luke Randall: Um, maybe about five times.
Main Interrogator #1: Yes?
Male voice: In a discussion I had with Luke
Randall on Friday, he told me a dozen times.
Luke Randall: I'll say something about that. I did
not say I had sex actually a dozen times; I said that there
was excursions maybe 10 to 12 times in a year and a half,
but I did not actually have sex every time. And I don't
feel, I mean, at this point, no one prompted me to say
anything, I feel that I'm just saying exactly - there's
nothing for me to protect or hide at this point.
Male voice: I agree.
Luke Randall: And no one encouraged me or coaxed
me to say anything. I felt it arose from something in myself
Main Interrogator #1: [Cutting him off]
Mr. Randall, don't start praising yourself.
Luke Randall: I'm not praising myself.
Main Interrogator #1: Yes, you are. So just stop.
We're just going to ask some questions; let's just get it
straight. Number two: Is one of the nights that this
occurred the night that TD and KC said they wanted to be
completely fair to Eli Siegel and Aesthetic Realism?
Luke Randall: That I don't think so.
Main Interrogator #1: Was this said to
Luke Randall: I think...
Bonnie Randall: [Cutting him off] I said
it to Mr. R because that's the night that I thought it was.
I can't be clear exactly about if that was the night. I
thought it was. I know that most times when this has
occurred it's been when there's been intensity in Opinion
Meetings or in classes. I know definitely that the night
that GT and TR were not there that Luke Randall did go out
and go to Washington Square Park and get drugs that night,
consciously exploiting the fact that GT and TR were not
going to be teaching Aesthetic Realism any more. And I
didn't know it then, all of this I didn't know until Friday
night when what happened, happened.
Main Interrogator #1: All right, so we're going to
ask some questions of you two, okay? And if anybody objects
to any of the questions or has questions of their own, ask
them. This should be a good mingling of formality and
informality. [To Luke Randall] Do you feel that what
Bonnie Randall said, though, that on notable evenings in the
history of Aesthetic Realism - other times, perhaps - when
persons said they wanted to be completely fair, things of
this nature went on?
Luke Randall: No. I don't feel that. Because this
happened before the questions of complete fairness came up.
It wasn't that suddenly the questions were made conscious
and I did something and...
Main Interrogator #1: [Cutting him off]
But since that time, this has also gone on, I'm aware.
Luke Randall: Yes.
Main Interrogator #1: And it also has been up to,
close to, and perhaps after the showing of the "Yes, We Have
Luke Randall: Definitely not. There was no sex
after. There was one time, not too long ago when I did,
being that I work in Rockaway, I stopped off by Reese Park
around lunchtime. Nothing happened, but I felt that being in
the vicinity, you know, it's an H area, but it also - it's
not like if I'm seen there a person would just say, "Well,
he's definitely cruising." There are straight couples in
that area too. And that...
Main Interrogator #1: [Cutting him off]
But your purpose for being there was with your eyes open,
Luke Randall: Yes.
Main Interrogator #1: All right. So then the next
thing is, Bonnie Randall, you have been aware on a number of
occasions that Mr. Randall was not at home at night. Is that
Bonnie Randall: Twice.
Main Interrogator #1: All right. Maybe you could
just say, since I don't want to be leading - I'm not the
best lawyer in the world, and I don't want to lead the
Bonnie Randall: Well, particularly one night,
there was another night, but one night was - I don't know
how long ago, maybe three months ago, that it was very late
and I was tired. I think it was after a class. I was tired
and went to bed, and Luke Randall said that he was not tired
and he wanted to stay up and watch television, and he did.
And then I woke up just in the middle of the night, the
television was on and he wasn't home. And I knew that he had
parked the car in a good spot, and I knew it was right down
in front of the apartment so when I looked out and the car
wasn't there, I knew something was going on. And I, by the
way, thought that he was out - I had a feeling that he was
looking for, you know, H or whatever. I didn't know, I had a
thought about it, but I just didn't want to believe that it
could be because it had never happened before.
Main Interrogator #1: Why did you think of it?
Bonnie Randall: Why? Because I just felt it was
strange because he had a couple of beers, we'd had drinks,
and I felt why else would he go out in the middle of the
night with the car, where would he go? That's why. I felt
where would he go? There's absolutely no place to go late at
Main Interrogator #1: [sarcastically]
Well, some people might go to visit their mother, or, you
Bonnie Randall: Not at one o'clock, two o'clock in
Main Interrogator #1: Or a foreign movie,
Bonnie Randall: It was very late and then I'd
stayed up and I was going to call WS since he was
downstairs, but I don't think I did, and then five minutes
later, Luke Randall had come home. It was a while later that
he had come home, and he started explaining himself, and I
slapped him across the face and said that I didn't believe
him; I just slapped him. And he was glad, he was glad for
that. But that was essentially it, and then I spoke to WS
about it the next day. The three of us spoke about it, and
Luke Randall did not say that there was anything that went
on. But there was, as now, I found out that there was
something, but I didn't know then. He said there was nothing
that happened; he said nothing happened he just wanted to go
for a ride, he couldn't sleep...
Main Interrogator #1: But meanwhile, also it seems
that at some occasion, at least, you asked pointedly if this
is what had gone on?
Bonnie Randall: Yeah.
Main Interrogator #1: At that time too?
Bonnie Randall: Yeah, I did.
Main Interrogator #1: And is WS the only person
you told about this?
Bonnie Randall: Um, the next day?
Main Interrogator #1: Well, in the months
following, that you've talked to in the last year about this
Bonnie Randall: I think that VK was another, and
Main Interrogator #2: If I could ask a question.
You slapped him across the face. I just want to say that I
find this disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.
And I feel that it's hideous that Mr.
Siegel is dead, and the two of you, the lowlifes that you
are, would [garbled] this garbage. And I
think you're both defending yourselves in various ways right
now. You are too, Mrs. Randall. You're not talking straight.
You knew more. You had suspicions. You slapped him across
the face because you didn't believe him. You had suspicions.
You almost let him go on TV.
Bonnie Randall: But I didn't want to believe that
he would do something like that. I didn't feel that - if
anything I thought he would look or something, but I didn't
think that he would ever do anything outright.
Main Interrogator #2: [Raising his voice]
You suspected he was looking for homosexuality, and he was a
man who had changed from H! You suspected he was looking for
homosexuality. Don't dress it up!
Bonnie Randall: All right.
Male voice: I wanted to ask Mrs. Randall too if at that
time were you at all concerned, if you
thought that this might be true, about Aesthetic Realism, or
were you just thinking of yourself as a woman who a man
could turn towards other men from? Were you thinking of the
fact that this could harm Aesthetic Realism in this way, or
were you just thinking of Bonnie Randall?
Bonnie Randall: I don't think that I was thinking
about that, about Aesthetic Realism at the time. This was,
it was before the film, and it was a while ago, about three
or four months ago, and It wasn't when Luke Randall was
public, although he was public in "Yes, We Have Changed"
when he gave his paper. Even so...
Main Interrogator #1: [Cutting her off]
Mrs. Randall, I think it would be better if you stopped. Ms.
Ms. L: One thing....I'm a little sick. But one
thing is, that I don't much care
whether Luke Randall had sex or went out looking for it.
It's the same thing. I don't see that there's
a substantial difference between his cruising the bars or
cruising Reese Park, or cruising wherever he cruised. And
you had - if you suspected, you must have seen
something. You're not blind; you're married to
this man. You saw things. I agree with [Main
Interrogator #2], you're protecting each other all over
the place. In one sentence, you said, I suspected, and I
didn't know. Which is it?
Bonnie Randall: Well, I did suspect it, but I
didn't want to believe it.
Another female voice: Well, I feel, I'm not a saint
myself, and a lot of things I'm not proud of, but this is
disgusting. [To Luke Randall] I'm your mother's
consultant. I thought about Mr. Siegel, [choking up]
and I thought about your mother, one of the most courageous
women in America. I love your mother.
You are [screams it] DISGUSTING! She could be USEFUL
TO EVERY MOTHER IN AMERICA, AND NOW SHE'S SLAUGHTERED IN
SOME WAY! [To Bonnie Randall] And you
didn't say anything because you wanted to have contempt, and
you wanted to protect yourself, and you didn't want to hear
criticism. I know; I've done it. And
you had contempt for Mr. Siegel and Aesthetic Realism that
he did this.
Main Interrogator #2: [To Luke Randall]
I'd like to ask the question how much
damage do you think you have done or are capable of doing?
You went out various nights, various people saw you,
people you're not even aware of saw you and passed you by,
you went to areas that are frequented by H.
Luke Randall: I don't know how much.
Main Interrogator #2: You were visible. I mean,
you met people and.
Luke Randall: I don't know...
Main Interrogator #2: Well I'm asking!
Luke Randall: It was always fast; it was always
late at night; it wasn't in any very public area; it was not
like in a bar or anything like that. Um, I don't know.
Main Interrogator #1: Are you interested, Mr.
Randall, in the damage you have done?
Luke Randall: Well, that's why I came here.
Main Interrogator #1: Is it a victory or a
Luke Randall: The damage I have done? It's a
horrible defeat. [Murmurs of disbelief from
everyone.] I wouldn't be here if I felt it was a
Male voice: [With concentrated anger] I am
sorry, I disagree strongly and I think your tone, both of
you, your tone shows otherwise. And I want to ask you, what
do you think Kay Longhope [a reporter] would give to
know this? What would she'd give to know this? Her right
arm, maybe? And I'm going to tell you something. That's what
you want, and don't kid yourself. That's what you want.
You want to go and go and go until
somebody discovers you and says, "My God, Aesthetic Realism
doesn't amount to anything. Nor does Eli Siegel." And that's
your hope. Don't kid yourselves.
Main Interrogator #1: Do you see, first of all --
there's, there's, I'm sure people have a very great deal
they want to say and they can say it -
do you see that the fact that you've
been public about Aesthetic Realism and this has happened is
just a death blow to the reputation and mockery of the
reputation of every person in this room? And that you
hold every one of us up to ridicule? Yes or no.
Luke Randall: I can't say yes or no. [Many
exclamations of disapproval in background]
Main Interrogator #1: We hope that by the end of
the evening, you will be saying yes.
Another male voice: Why do you think people are
Luke Randall: Because people want to protect
Main Interrogator #1: So before -- I think
everyone here can be expressed this evening, I think it's
part of the purpose of the evening - but I told Mr. Randall
and Mrs. Randall before they came that they should think
what they feel is their recommendation for what justice
would be as to this. And I think they should say before
people say more, if other people agree with me. If anybody
disagrees I would like to know. [Murmurs of
agreement] I'm finding my way here too. So I think you
should say as clearly as you can what, in these hours since
we spoke, you feel would be justice in this situation.
Luke Randall: One of the things I thought of was I
felt that, I thought to myself that maybe, well, I felt
even though I couldn't be sure if
someone did, could recognize me from the film, and I know KB
said something about the possibility of it being edited, and
when I heard that I felt maybe that should be, and I
Main Interrogator #1: We'll take care of the mess.
What do you think would be justice in this situation as to
you? As to Mrs. Randall?
Luke Randall: It's very hard to be objective. I
Main Interrogator #1: I WANT YOU TO SAY WHAT YOU
THINK WOULD BE JUSTICE IN THIS SITUATION! YOU WANT EVERYBODY
ELSE TO TELL YOU! WE'RE NOT GOING TO...
Luke Randall: [garbled]
Main Interrogator #1: WELL THEN SAY IT!
Luke Randall: I don't know! I felt, one of the
things I felt was that I should not be a
Main Interrogator #1: Mmm hmm...
Luke Randall: That's one thing that I felt. That
was, well one of the main things that I felt.
Main Interrogator #1: Do you have any ideas
where you shouldn't be a consultant-in-training?
Luke Randall: What?
Main Interrogator #1: Where.
Luke Randall: What do you mean where I
Main Interrogator #1: I'm asking.
Do you think you should be a
non-consultant-in-training in New York City or do you think
you should be a non-consultant-in-training
Luke Randall: A non-consultant-in-training in New
Main Interrogator #1: That's
your opinion. Mrs. Randall?
Bonnie Randall: I feel I can't bear the idea that
the film -- well, I know that can be taken care of, but, I
guess I'll just answer the question as to what's justice in
this situation. Uh, I feel that maybe Luke Randall should
not be a consultant-in-training until he proves something
different. I worry about how he would use that. Um, I don't
think, I think that, you know, I'm just trying to get my
thoughts together. I...
Main Interrogator #1: Yes, Miss P?
Miss P: I wanted to ask Mrs. Randall if she sees
herself as a victim of circumstance or an active participant
Bonnie Randall: Well, I've been thinking about
this because I didn't want to see myself as being a part of
this, and I feel that...
Main Interrogator #1: Miss R seems to want to
Miss R: I'd like to know, since you say you didn't
see yourself as a part of this, when
you got the first hint of a suspicion that there might be H,
why didn't you call ten people; why didn't you raise your
hand in an Opinion Meeting? Why didn't you make something
public - unless you were out to protect your husband so you
can have contempt galore for him, contempt for Eli Siegel
and Aesthetic Realism and drag everybody through the
Another female voice: Also, you had many
opportunities to say something because I know in the last
year the two of you have been talked to at least three times
intensely at an Opinion Meeting. When a wife slaps her
husband it's not just one person you tell. It's big-time.
When I did something to [my husband] I wrote a
document for the Saturday general lesson because I wanted
Eli Siegel to know. Because either I had to hear criticism
or he did. You have to look at why you didn't say anything
when he was talked to at an Opinion Meeting about his
health. You wanted Aesthetic Realism to be useful to you as
to his health, but then you don't say what's going on?!
Bonnie Randall: I think I wanted to protect
Main Interrogator #1: Well, don't just say you
think, because it's, it's important - and persons who have
information should say so -- but I know that you called me
sometime back and you said that you had been in a team with
Mr. Randall, and it was over, and all the facts had to be
known, and you put him on the phone. And I asked a lot of
questions, some of them rather pointed. Everything was
denied except for the fact of some drugs taken, right?
Bonnie Randall: Right.
Main Interrogator #1: Not a word was ever said --
I asked some questions in this field, did I not?
Bonnie Randall: Yes, and he said no.
Main Interrogator #1: And nothing was said that
there had been any suspicion either.
Bonnie Randall: Right, I wasn't suspicious.
Main Interrogator #1: So, just, it's good for
people to know that.
Bonnie Randall: Right, I wasn't suspicious at all;
I hadn't been used to...about the drugs I was suspicious but
not about H.
Main Interrogator #1: [Cutting her off]
Mrs. Randall, what you said a bit ago was that these
occasions you had been suspicious were prior to this.
Bonnie Randall: Right.
Male voice: Is this prior to the "Yes, We Have
Changed" program or after? I'm just trying...
Main Interrogator #2: If I could just be clear, in
terms of, uh -- you are saying five times, Luke Randall,
five times you actually had sex. And you went out about a
dozen looking for, and that these five times was -- when was
the last time you went out looking for a man?
Luke Randall: That was the most recent, what I
said, Reese Park at lunch a few weeks ago, but before that
was the beginning of March or the end of February.
Main Interrogator #2: So you went out a few weeks
ago, March and February again was another time?
Luke Randall: Right. But I've always had the
thoughts and instead of, I never talked about them, I kept
them secret thoughts, the H thoughts.
Main Interrogator #2: I just want to say one thing
more in terms of what I know about you. I think you're a
loaded gun. I think you're a danger. I think your wife's a
danger. We had the monthly meetings, you lied your way
through. You called me at work and talking with me in a way
that -- you lied to me in a way that I question your sanity
in a way. I do. Something is at fault with your mind, I'll
tell you that right now. Because the two ways, I've never --
I've heard things about two ways, I've never seen in a
person. And I'm not new to Aesthetic Realism, I've been
studying ten years, I have not seen it in any way I've seen
it in you. You've talked to me in a way that had Monumental
Fooler of the Universe in it. And you said at the last
meetings that you were critical of yourself in a phony way,
though it seemed to be sincere, red-faced saying that
you thought your difficulty was coming
from that you thought Mr. Siegel was praised too much and
that no one should be praised this much. People should know
what that means. You, in effect, took a knife and stuck it
in Mr. Siegel's grave when you went out and did this.
There was trouble with you in a Time Enough Poetry Class
with Mr. Siegel. You were not kind, decent to him then. The
way you saw thought was lousy. There was an anger in you
about thought, you heard about it, and you heard about it,
and your sister, and you've wanted to make less of all you
heard about your sister. But I think
people should know what you said about Mr. Siegel in the
meetings we've had. And, well, I'm obviously going
about this, but I guess the thought that I've got is that
you are a danger.
Main Interrogator #1: Sometimes people can get
upset when they are honored.
Main Interrogator #2: In terms of that too, I
think there is a very good possibility that the reason that
woman, that producer, said to you at work that you should
talk to Silverstein first, because someone may have called
her, I think it's a very good possibility, and said, "That
guy, I recognized." It's so unusual for a producer to commit
themselves that way about a piece they did to somebody on
the phone. It's so unusual. There is a good possibility
somebody called and said something. Because I've gotten
looks this week -- don't give me a face -- one guy who saw
you on the street recognizing you, just one man, just one.
One guy recognizing your face calls up Eyewitness News,
calls up Good Morning New York, finds his way to wherever
the show is done if he didn't know where it was, and says,
"That guy in the tape, they didn't change." One guy does it
and then Judy Licht will feel that the anger in her about
Aesthetic Realism and the guilt she's had -- and any other
press person - is justified and that they are wanting
to attack it now and find some shrink who will tear down
Aesthetic Realism. You only need one person who will go
against Mr. Siegel in terms of the press. Just one person to
recognize you. And the way you've been talking about this,
you're Kay Longhope. You don't need a lot of people calling
about it. You just need one. The fact that you and your wife
would let you, even talk about going on the air! That you
would think about going on the air with your mother. I
respect your mother so much. That you have a mother so good.
[Loud sounds of agreement from everyone].
Female voice: She said she wanted to be completely
fair in her last consultation.
Main Interrogator #2: There
are babies, children who aren't even tall enough to stand up
on their two feet and you've crippled them for life. You're
Main Interrogator #1: I agree with [Main
Interrogator #2]. Part of the agenda for this evening is
for us to collectively decide what we're going to do to take
Main Interrogator #2: Another thing people should
know is that you deliberately tried in your sloppy,
self-loving way to weaken HR yesterday when you told him you
envied GT. [gasps of horror] You slob!
Luke Randall: [says something in a very low
Main Interrogator #1: DON'T SAY IT THAT WAY. YOU
JUST TRIED TO MAKE [Main Interrogator #2] LOOK LIKE
A LIAR! HE'S NOT!
[Apparently Mr. Randall gets up to leave] Sit
Luke Randall: No, I'm not going to... This is
Male voice: LUKE RANDALL, WOULD YOU
STOP THINKING OF YOURSELF? WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AESTHETIC
REALISM AND ELI SIEGEL!
[Multiple voices all speaking at once]
Female voice: He has no regret!
Another female voice: I hope she leaves him
Another female voice: We can take whatever he
has to say, he can say it.
Main Interrogator #1: I'll just say one thing. IF
YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY, YOU SAY IT IN HERE IN FRONT OF
EVERYBODY. AND DON'T STAND OUT HERE IN THE HALLWAY
[garbled]. If you're a man come in here and say it.
[Sounds as though people may be re-taking their
Female voice: Make up your minds. Bonnie Randall,
make up your mind. Make up your mind!
[More sounds of reentry]
Another female voice: [To Luke Randall] Do
you think that you owe anything to Eli Siegel and Aesthetic
Luke Randall: Yes, I do.
Main Interrogator #1: What?
Luke Randall: Uh, that's the thing; I know that,
when I do think about my life before I started to
Main Interrogator #1: Luke Randall, let me just
say something: let's face facts. Quite frankly, I think you
have ruined your life. Now, you have the choice of either
taking care of something beautiful even though you have
damaged yourself, or you're going to exploit it.
Luke Randall: I don't want to make the double
Main Interrogator #1: So, then, would you please
see to it that for the rest of this evening, there is one
thing on your mind. I don't think you have much to protect
anymore. So would you quit loving
yourself and please see what it would mean to take care of
Aesthetic Realism honestly and truly once and for all? Will
you please do it for each -- look into the eyes of each of
the men here. Mr. Randall, you've tried to deal a deathblow
to every life in this room. Some of us, Mr. Randall,
have come quite a ways to get here today. I had a
father-in-law who committed suicide this week because
Aesthetic Realism couldn't get to him, because he was afraid
he was homosexual and he didn't think he could live any
more. So please think in that uncharted territory about
someone other than yourself while you're here tonight.
Luke Randall: [whispers] God.
Main Interrogator #1: So, does anyone else wish --
we are in the process of establishing... [With obvious
disapproval] Is there anything you would like to say Mr.
Mr. S: [After long silence.] Well....
Main Interrogator #1: Have you or have you not
been in torment in the last couple of days, Mr. S?
Main Interrogator #2: I don't know, see, maybe I'm
wrong, and I feel people should say what they feel, but I
think that we've got to -- I want to know what Luke Randall
was going to do. [To Luke Randall] I don't know if I
can believe you. We have to know what you're going to do,
and then we have to decide how can we take care of Mr.
Siegel now. How can we take care of our whole lives, how can
we take care of the people who need to meet Aesthetic
Realism. We've got to find ways to bring Aesthetic Realism
to people. Besides that, we've got to make a recommendation
to the student body. So there are two things on the
Male voice: [To Luke Randall]
I wanted to ask, uh, ask you what do
you intend to do to protect Aesthetic Realism?
Luke Randall: Well, the thing is, I definitely
never intend to go near an H bar or dock or anything like
that. I, I...
Main Interrogator #1: So you're going to live
deprived. What else do you intend to do?
Luke Randall: I don't know; I don't know.
Main Interrogator #1: Well, sir, think! This is
what we're here for.
Luke Randall: I really don't know.
Main Interrogator #1: Mr. Randall, I'll just, I'll
say it quietly. Which do you think would take better care of
Aesthetic Realism: if you came to a decision about
something, or if you were told what to do?
Luke Randall: If I came to a decision....
Main Interrogator #1: I will not hesitate to tell
you what I think you should do, but I think it would be far
better for Aesthetic Realism if you made the decision.
Luke Randall: I agree with that.
Main Interrogator #1: So will you please tell us
what you think should be.
Luke Randall: I don't know!
Main Interrogator #1: FIND YOUR WAY!
Luke Randall: I, I, it's, this...
Male voice: You want to be told what to do, and
then you can have contempt for Aesthetic Realism and work it
into this situation where you are hurt.
Luke Randall: I said that one of the worst things
I did feel in some way I was looking to be told or asked to
leave. Um, and that, but I don't know, other than the fact
that I myself decided that I should not be a
consultant-in-training, I don't know what else follows. It's
something that I've given a lot of my life to Aesthetic
Realism. I don't know...
[MANY VOICES DISSENT ANGRILY]
Female voice: You've given to Aesthetic
Another female voice: You have given
nothing to Aesthetic Realism!
Main Interrogator #1: You've been, as you've
studied [garbled] a leech!
Female voice: Luke Randall, I heard Eli Siegel
talk about you, and I've watched him in classes at 67 Jane
Street and want to take care of your life. And I - it is un
- it's not unbelievable, which is what's unfortunate to see
you sit there, simply interested in protecting YOUR OWN GOD
DAMN NARROW SELF with your wife joining you, AFTER Mr.
Siegel is dead, not giving a DAMN what you put anybody
through, not caring what you did to every man in this room,
every man who is walking around the street homosexual, the
possibilities of all the people that saw you. And you are
sitting there, COLD, disinterested, like the whole DAMN
THING doesn't matter, and your wife is joining you. And then
you take a fit because a couple of people are critical of
you? You better figure out what you think should be!
Main Interrogator #1: As part of the basis of
figuring out, I agree with Ms. L, I think that it would be
good -- [With suddenly vehemence]
YOU'VE HATED ELI SIEGEL SINCE THE DAY
THAT HE DESCRIBED TO YOUR SISTER WHAT YOUR FEELINGS WERE
ABOUT HER. And your sister has gone through a very great
deal because she didn't want to be honest, but YOU HAVE
HATED ELI SIEGEL EVER SINCE THAT DAY because one thing your
sister had shown is that she loves him more than she loves
you. And you've never forgiven him for it and you still
haven't. Mr. W.
Mr. W: I just want to say that I just came from
hearing a lesson of Kevin Randall, where Eli Siegel spoke
gorgeously about Luke Randall. And Eli Siegel gave this
assignment to Kevin Randall: "It Would Make Me Proud If I
Saw My Brother Luke Randall in the Following Manner. Write
one thing every day." That's how Eli Siegel saw you. You've
given nothing; he's given everything. He's given everything.
And I think, Mr. Randall, see, you want us to tell you what
to do so you can say for the rest of your life, "I met the
most beautiful thing in the world but it couldn't get
through to me." And I think, and I think you're looking for
the ultimate victory right now. But I want to tell you
something. It was magnificent the way I heard Eli Siegel
speak about you, just less than an hour ago on a tape.
Female voice: And Mr. Siegel was speaking about
you that way a month or two months before he died, at a time
when he was in more pain than any pain you've ever come
close to in your life. And he's made it possible for you to
have a life, even with everything you've done right now, to
have some possibility for a life and to live, and I think
your silence is horrible. And Bonnie Randall, you ought to
say something! Say where you are.
Bonnie Randall: Well, I feel I want to teach
Aesthetic Realism, I want to be in classes, I feel I want to
Same female voice: Why should anybody trust you in
classes? You have not been taking care of Aesthetic Realism
in your mind at least for the last year!
Bonnie Randall: Well, I do feel - I definitely
feel I want to use this to be different.
Main Interrogator #1: Mrs. Randall, look, let's
make something very clear. In certain ways you don't have a
choice. So what do you think, even as to you, would be fair?
And what do you see as for yourself as taking care of
Aesthetic Realism at this time?
Bonnie Randall: Just as to myself?
Main Interrogator #1: As to yourself.
Main Interrogator #1: Do you think people have a
right to question your sincerity?
Bonnie Randall: Yes.
Main Interrogator #1: So what do you think should
Bonnie Randall: Well, I hope that I can say what I
feel, and it can be questioned, but I feel I want to do all
I can to be a different person through what's been going on.
I feel that I haven't been who I hoped to be in the past
six, nine months I would say, and I feel I want to be
Main Interrogator #2: See the reason why ...
Main Interrogator #1: Go ahead.
Main Interrogator #2: I, in a certain sense, I'm
more concerned with your husband and [garbled] all
of this to say that, someday - I'm
more concerned with Luke Randall and his threat to Eli
Siegel, his threat to every student of Aesthetic Realism,
his threat to people across America. What do you think is
necessary to protect Aesthetic Realism? You as his
wife, you've seen things, there are questions about you, but
what should be done now in terms of the film, and him in
class, etcetera across the board?
Bonnie Randall: I have thought mostly about that
today, and I thought about a lot of things. One thing that I
thought about is that Luke Randall and I -- I don't know if
this is easy to do or if it's not even the best thing,
because I do and I know there's something beautiful in Luke
Randall and he said he would hate the idea that the film be
removed, his section of the film be removed. [Objections
from everybody in the room]
Male voice: I don't care what he would hate.
Bonnie Randall: All right, but I'm just saying
Male voice: [Repeats it louder] I don't
care what he would hate!
Female voice: Stop thinking about yourself.
Another male voice: What's going to happen to
Third male voice: Also, frankly, I think that -- I
don't know if anybody has just said it out -- but I
definitely think this segment should come out and I don't
think there's too much question about it. [Loud comments
of agreement from others]
Another female voice: WHY DIDN'T HE THINK ABOUT
THE FILM. WHY DIDN'T HE THINK ABOUT THE FILM WHEN HE WENT
INTO A TRUCK!
Same male voice: I don't think it's too much of a
question. [Sounds of agreement]
Fourth male voice: You're not thinking of the
people, that people really saw you.
Fifth male voice: It's not real to you; it's not
Main Interrogator #2: Bonnie Randall and Luke
Randall, I can remember, I saw somebody two weeks ago who I
remembered from the bars. And a month before that, I saw
somebody who I knew back in my old neighborhood. His life
was so different than mine; I saw him looking at guys on the
street as I passed him by, saw him looking at young boys,
and it was something to see in four years, the difference. I
remembered. And then, I didn't think about him, but when I
saw him, click [snaps fingers] I remembered. And
it's everybody here, whether it be a man or a woman, can
somebody somewhere, remember the messenger at work, will
remember their next-door neighbor when they run into them
three years later. [Murmurs of agreement] People --
we see them and your memory is jarred. And it's the -- well
my opinion is, Luke Randall, I feel, my recommendation would
be that the way you are speaking, in the way your wife is
speaking, I feel you definitely -- and [garbled] I
should not be the first person saying it. [A chorus of
people saying he should not say it.]
Main Interrogator #1: Mr. C.
Mr. C: I think Luke Randall should say what you
see as your obligation to Eli Siegel, to Aesthetic Realism,
to every man who's here who's changed that you want
Luke Randall: Well, I don't know what to say at
[Many people speak loudly and intensely all at
Mr. C: YOU HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO EVERYBODY IN THIS
ROOM AND TO EVERY PERSON IN THE WORLD! WE REPRESENT MILLIONS
OF PEOPLE! I REPRESENT A WHOLE COUNTRY! YOU HAVE TO BE JUST!
Bonnie Randall [to Luke Randall]: Would
Luke Randall: I don't know what...
[SEVERAL PEOPLE START YELLING]
Male voice: That's not good enough!
Female voice: YOU CALLED HIM A LIAR BY PUTTING
YOUR FACE ON THAT SHOW!
Another male voice: Look at people when you
Luke Randall: I wasn't in my right mind...
Same male voice: [Louder] Look at people
when you speak!
Luke Randall: It wasn't in my mind; [Main
Interrogator #2] is right.
Same male voice: Look in someone's eyes and think
of their life. Think of me, for example. Do you want me to
have someone come and say, "Oh, you say you changed; I don't
believe it. I know someone who said he'd changed and he had
his name in an ad, and he was in a film. It was
Another male voice: Luke, think of FB who came
this week and who you spoke to the other night and just
left, who is leaving right now on a plane with his wife who
has three children waiting back home, who is hopeful as
hell. Think of him.
Female voice: I think there could be something
from you right now. You were asked what do you owe Eli
Siegel. I owe to Eli Siegel my life,
my being, every fiber in my body.
Main Interrogator #2: Here, here! [Sentiment
echoed by others]
Same female voice: I'm proud of that.
Main Interrogator #1: Pretty good fibers, too!
[Hubbub in background agreeing]
Another female voice: Luke Randall, I think you
could begin right now. There hasn't been an honest regret.
I'm sitting here, I could weep for years. I have a letter in
my purse from a SCUM who said my husband didn't change, and
you are backing him up. You could have written this letter.
I didn't see the import when I came tonight, but my God, my
eyes are open! You and Bonnie Randall,
you should say, "I could weep for eternity for what I have
done." And it's not just the past year. My God, you
were married, you haven't even been married a year. It
hasn't been the past year; it's been many, many years. So
you can't just see it as being of the moment. It's been
something in you for years. But you could start now, you
could start right now and be honest, and be humble and
people would respect you for that.
Luke Randall: I...
Bonnie Randall [to Luke Randall]:
[garbled] what SB said? I'm glad for what you said,
SB. Luke, you should say something.
Luke Randall: Well, I...
Male voice: [To Bonnie Randall] What about
you? [Repeated by many others]
Main Interrogator #1: What about you? What do you
think he should do?
Bonnie Randall: What do I think he should do right
Main Interrogator #1: What do you think he should
Bonnie Randall: I think he should change; I think
he should want to see this; he should want to look at what
Mr. Siegel said. I feel he is angry with Mr. Siegel. He
doesn't like the way Mr. Siegel talked to [his
Main Interrogator #1: OK Mrs. Randall.
Main Interrogator #2 or another
man: I want to know what Bonnie
Randall feels will protect Aesthetic Realism and take care
of Aesthetic Realism. Quite frankly, I don't care right now
about Mr. Randall.
Bonnie Randall: Okay. I feel that Luke Randall, to
take care of Aesthetic Realism should not be in classes. I
feel that will take care of Aesthetic Realism.
Main Interrogator #2: And? And?
Bonnie Randall: But I don't feel that I should not
be there. I feel I want to be there.
Female voice: Why should we trust you? Why?
Bonnie Randall: Why?
Same female voice: Yes, why.
Bonnie Randall: Well, number one, I feel, I feel I
Same female voice: Have you
been in good faith?! Have you protected Eli Siegel's meaning
in your home and Aesthetic Realism and the change in
Bonnie Randall: No.
Another female: I would like to ask....
Previous female voice: It's been a mockery, pardon
me, but this has been a mockery.
Main Interrogator #1: Yes, but staying with right
now, what's being talked about as to Mr. Randall, you say
rather cautiously maybe he shouldn't be in class. Do you
think that -- what do you feel is necessary to protect
Aesthetic Realism? Do you feel that "Perhaps Mr. Randall
shouldn't be in class" is sufficient, or do you think that
it is, well, that perhaps Aesthetic Realism needs further
Bonnie Randall: I think both, I don't know.
Another female: Bonnie Randall, you be straight
and say everything you think should be. You want to be
Main Interrogator #2: I don't think you're gonna
get a straight answer out of the two of them. My
recommendation would be, and I'll say this straight, the two
of you should be asked to leave; we should talk amongst
ourselves. I don't want to waste more time with the two of
you. Unless there's anything more you want to add
[garbled] I feel the two of you should leave. The
student body must decide what to do with respect to a
recommendation. If I'm wrong, people should say so.
[Cacophony of people saying that he is
Female voice: I want to remind that Ellen Reiss
had said recently in a class, she said, and I think she used
the word accuse, she said this might surprise you, but she
said, I accuse you of, you know, letting your husband leave,
go to California and acting sad for a while and then joining
him. Very sweetly, "Oh no." You know. You didn't spill any
beans. And I just want to say I agree with [Main
Interrogator #2] because the thing I feel is, two plus
two equals four. I feel there is no regret, because you
still don't feel you've made a mistake.
Bonnie Randall: I do! [Sound of others
disagreeing] I made a mistake!
Female voice: What was your mistake?
Bonnie Randall: One, I did not inform people of my
suspicions; I did not talk to people about what I, was going
on with us.
Another female voice: [screeching] YOUR
MISTAKE, BONNIE RANDALL, WAS THAT YOU WANTED ELI SIEGEL DEAD
AGAIN -- THAT'S YOUR MISTAKE! AND YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT
ANYBODY'S LIFE! ALL THE MEN IN THIS ROOM AND ALL THE MEN
THAT HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO MEET AESTHETIC
REALISM! I DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT
YOUR HUSBAND FROM ONE POINT OF VIEW; I DON'T GIVE A DAMN
ABOUT YOU! WHAT ABOUT ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE? WHAT
ABOUT ELI SIEGEL? YOU HAVEN'T SAID ONE WORD ABOUT AESTHETIC
REALISM! WHAT DO YOU THINK SHOULD BE TO PROTECT AESTHETIC
REALISM AND ELI SIEGEL?! "MY GOD I'VE MADE MISTAKES," BUT
THEY DESERVE PROTECTION! [LONG PAUSE] NOT ONE WORD
OUT OF EITHER OF YOU?!
Bonnie Randall: I'm just not sure what to say.
[Same female and several others all speak at
Main Interrogator #1: I think [Main
Interrogator #2] is right.
Another female voice: And don't get a victory now.
[Murmurs from others]
Third female voice: You can't possibly get a
victory. You are so selfish, that's
the thing. I can't believe how selfish you both are! You're
so disgustingly selfish!
Fourth female voice: Bonnie, you should go with
him. [Which indicates that Luke Randall has probably
already gotten up to leave or has left]
Bonnie Randall: I'm sorry [garbled].
Male voice: I want to say something also. Make
sure Mr. Randall and Mrs. Randall, as she leaves here, we
are trying to protect Aesthetic Realism, the thing that you
have been close to in a very public way, which can hurt
people. So make sure you are in good faith as you leave. At
least the best you can, try to take care of Aesthetic
[End of Part I. Stay tuned for Part